Talk:Legacy of Kain

Freewill and predestination

dear monere,to refute your claim that the series' storyline isn't/wasn't concluded yet,please see these links that prove otherwise;defiance was indeed the conclusion to the legacy of kain series' storyline [1][2].as such,my edit is based on this info.please discuss with others your proposed edits/changes before completely deleting one's part altogether. thank youGrandia01 (talk) 13:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I think both of you are right, it just how you look at it. I belive that your infromation is correct (not all, but that doesnt matter), but it shouldnt belong in this section, because it's non-official.

Btw, Raziel indeed had the free will, he could have stay in the spectral realm for an eternity, but he chose to help in restoring the balance. Kain also had the free will tough, he could have chose to sacrifice himself to restore the balance, but in the end Raziel did it instead of Kain. Just some of my oppinion. RazielZero (talk) 18:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

hey raziel,thank you for seeing both points.i don't mind discussing stuff with other fellow editors as much as you do but monere seems to prefer otherwiseGrandia01 (talk) 06:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, as it's been incoveniently placed at the start rather than end of the page I appear to have missed this section, formal apologies to whoever's concerned. Some notification that this existed would have been useful before handing out threats, but whatever.

[3] This is a third-party source from six years ago with no bearing on what Eidos is currently doing with the series. There have since been claims from Crystal Dynamics and Eidos that the series is not done with, will dig up several refs at request.

[4] Similarly, this article harps on endings and conclusions yet is not a direct source from Eidos, it's third-party. There is a difference between official sources and the speculations of unrelated reviewers.

Kain obviously does not have free will. This is stated multiple times throughout the series from Soul Reaver onwards, and confirmed externally. I take issue with the following statements:

"Kain dooms Nosgoth" Nowhere is it stated that he is attempting to alter this fact.

"Moebius dies" He was not attempting to change this. He was interested only in killing Kain.

"Raziel enters the reaver" Yes, in vastly different circumstances.

"and the Elder God survives" Absolutely unconfirmed and unsourced.

"Indicating that no matter how hard anyone tries, predestined fate can never be altered or averted." False. Soul Reaver 2 is based entirely around this theme. Raziel's predestined fate has been altered twice. Initially he was destined to murder Kain and enter the Reaver five centuries in the past. Both events were altered.

Kain's fate has undergone a full aversion. He was fated to die at Raziel's hands in the Sarafan Stronghold; this was utterly averted, changing history and refuting the above claim seven years before it was even written.

To set things straight: If I see something incorrect I will remove it and give a reason. I have no particular like or dislike of anyone here, only the content they produce. The point of it all is to create an article without erroneous information. I'd rather you do that instead of wasting time getting together for a diplomatic chat to stroke egos. --Monere (talk) 13:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, I notice Grandia01 has returned the contested content again; for civility's sake I will concede not to re-revert, but forcing speculative junk into the article to annoy an admin seems more like a provocative strike of stubborn, petty trolling than the apparent good faith professed above. --Monere (talk) 14:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I support Monere's idea, that infromation is not official so it shouldnt be there. Also, it's not a big thing that would be missed by the people who read the page. Just remove it. I'm sure we aren't the only ones who think this way. 80.98.36.25 (talk) 16:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I also support Monere in this. In addition to what he has said, I will add William the Just from Blood Omen - originally he was meant to start conquering Nosgoth as the Nemesis, but then Kain went back in time and killed him before he could become the Nemesis. There is a direct example of someone's predestined fate being altered dramatically through the use of the Soul Reaver.

A major theme throughout the series, mainly in Soul Reaver 2, is that one cannot alter predestined fault unless there are multiple Soul Reavers present. Even if the contested content stays, I recommend it is altered to make this facet apparent, as the way it is now the content is misleading. -- Aradiel (talk) 22:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

This may be a little out-of-date, but Monroe is correct, Ritual Entertainment were working on a Defiance sequel called 'The Dark Prophecy' in 2003-04 (which was cancelled) - if they were several months into work on a sequel, Defiance can't have been the planned conclusion.86.179.153.87 (talk) 14:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Raziel and Kain's appearances

I noticed something interesting about Raziel and Kain's appearances. Anyone else see it? Kain's body looks like a bulkier and better suited variation of the Hylden, while Raziel's looks like a decayed and ghoulish version of the ancients. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.191.54 (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Assumptions

The article makes some incorrect assumptions, one of the main being the series was planned to go the way it did from the first game (circa 1996). This is completely incorrect. After the first game, Blood Omens; Amy Weber took the plans and drafts from the owner and presented them as her own to publishers/developers. This is why the tone of the game changed to include block puzzles, the protagonist changed to a broody anti-hero (raziel) and the game became a puzzle-action game, causing much anguish to fans of the original game.

The original game Blood Omens was an action/adventure with rpg elements; Kane was not an anti-hero. He was a no-nonsense villain who killed not just for revenge, but just for the sake of killing. (note: the human nobleman kain in the opening of blood omen before he became a vampire was not a nice person himself at all!) ALso, the soulreaver was just one of many weapons in the game; it was Amy Weber who decided to make the dramatic shift in the gameplay and storyline, the result of which are the confusing, inconsistent and gameplay wise inferior 'sequels' produced after blood omens.

Hopefully I will have time to edit and e-write the artcle since it is inaccurate in many ways and apparetnly written by someonw who is not familiar of the original bloodomen game nor the behind the scenes duplicity that was inflicted upon the original creator of the series, causing the series to veeer totally away from its roots in a confusing and garbled mess. (vampires for instance, now became a 'noble race' instead of the killing machines they were in the orignal game).

This article is interesting, and in places extremely well-written, but doesn't anyone else think that it needs some pictures? I thought that perhaps putting a picture of the game covers next to their descriptions would help the article visually, and perhaps the occasional screenshot or character art would also help. Anyone agree? Dragonfly888 22:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Raziel logo

I pulled this from LoK:D (or was it SR2?) to use it as a spray in counterstrike. Not the most descriptive picture, but it's something. Do Crystal Dynamics have a website? Tzarius 08:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't personally find a Crystal Dynamics website, but the soul reaver games are on ediosinteractive.com and I think it's got links to their games sites as well on there. Cool picture! dunno if it really fits in the article though. Maybe it could go on Raziel's page instead - my concern is that it's a bit cartoony and doesn't really suit the atmosphere of the games. Tell ya what - sometime today or tomorrow I'll add the game cover art onto the main page. It'd be cool if someone could find a 'logo' that would suit the whole series. Also, I'm sure I once saw a template that could be used for a series of videogames - if there isn't one I reckon there should be anyway. I don't have a clue how to make templates tho. Dragonfly888 12:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

File:Lok wallpaper01 1280.jpg

I knew I had these somewhere! Tzarius 21:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

WOW. Those are cool. It would be pretty random to just have the wallpapers sitting in the article, so perhaps it would be useful to take certain parts (such as Raziel or Kain's head to illustrate the characters) from it. Those are amazing pics tho. Dragonfly888 21:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Everything looks great, but I just noticed that the cover art for LOK:Defiance is incorrect, that's not the NTSC cover. It might be an old promotional shot, since the rating is still pending ("RP" in bottom corner) Anyone have the actual cover? --ThisIsMyUsername 17:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorted the defiance cover. Dragonfly888 17:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Just as a point of vandalism- I'm fairly certain that if there is a new game out for the series, that it doesn't belong in the Defiance section. The Chibi Kiriyama

The article seems quite sloppy. It's interesting to to read up on all that moebius info, but should a footnote on the fifth game of a series be longer than the entire summary of games 1-3? If not moved directly to a new "Legacy of Kain: Defiance" section (each game has a section but the 5th) it should at least be placed in the mobius article. I think the article could be organized much better. Reaverz 20:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to add: all this is in fairly obvious and un-original imitation of two main (possibly sub-conscious) sources: The now-old movie LifeForce, (featuring the gothic crypts, a character named Kain, and a cast-iron sword strangely akin to the later SoulReaver, and of course space-vampires stealing people's 'souls' depicted as blue energies) and an even older edition of Marvel Comics' Tomb of Dracula, where Dracula is challenged by a young usurper, Gorna, the self-styled "Lord of the living lightning" who gets his comeuppance when Vlad both crisps his punk ass and blows his lower jawbones off with a bolt of lightning. (Dracula had been slinging the bolts for a lot longer than Gorna). Gorna, formerly brash and handsome, covers up his new deformities with a scarf, and goes on a quest of revenge hunting Dracula for a payback which never comes his way. He even looks lke raziel with the same shock of dark hair. Further, the character of Hannibal Lecter is such an obvious imitation itself of Vlad the Impaler (see the movie 'Hannibal Rising' where he just HAS to say 'Good Evening') that it seemed redundant to cross-reference the two; Kain simply IS yet another take on Dracula, (as Voivode) end of discussion. And yes, I agree: all the time-travel manipulations and stuff with the Hylden is due to copyright thefts and storyline impositions by competitors within the various corporations vying to swap ownership of these games.

Dark Eden Reference

The Dark Eden section in this article seems out of place, as the article itself seems to deal more with the games themselves than the content thereof; perhaps it should be moved elsewhere? 66.188.40.113 15:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, mentioning DE without having a section for the Pillars is sort of strange. Tzarius 20:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The disambiguation link to the MMORPG Darkeden seems to have nothing to do with this series... 213.22.44.45 18:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the timeline table is wrong because I have LOK: Blood Omen 2 and it has a trailer of Soul Reaver 2, so this means that Soul Reaver 2 came after Blood Omen 2.

No, SR2 was definitely first. It came out in late 2001, and BO2 was released in early 2002. 66.188.40.113 03:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I Agree

Timelines and time travel

Should we create a table of the "timelines" within the games?

By that I mean, one table would chronicle what happened before Kain killed William. Another would chronicle what happened after Kain killed WtJ but before Raziel refused to kill Kain etc

Or would that be a bit... inappropriate? I would say it's worth a try.

LoK:Defiance plays like Devil May Cry?

Has anyone notice that it plays like Devil May Cry?AgentJ13 23:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

    Yes. Everyone.

Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver - disconnect with text and picture

The cover art and text that deals with Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver says that his right art is imbued with the power (or at least some of the power) of the Soul Reaver. Then why does the cover art for said section show a glowing left hand??? (Note that it is our right, but Raziel's left)

Mugatu224 18:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Mugatu224

Raziel/Soul Reaver Paradox

Is anyone interested in writing something about the Raziel/Soul Reaver paradox? I.E. The apparent fact that Raziel and the Soul Reaver are one, and, well, you know. That whole thing.

P.S. I hate paradoxes. They make my head asplode.

History abhors a paradox. Bitch.

Film is bogus

I have removed the film stub for it is bogus. Copied from my post at Eidos' Lok:Defiance forums, "Eidos Hates this Series"

After my initial knee jerk reaction, which I should have never done, I went to actually conduct research into this supposed 'film'. The results my endeavors are: (1) of the movies that were announced on the date in question(May 21st, 2007) LoK was not mention any other blogs(Kotaku and Joystiq, slashdot didn't report on it). (2) This mysterious LoK film was not even pick up on news democracies/archives like digg (3) This Kain film was not mention on 1UP or Game Spot's coverage of the story, IGN didn't list in their Games-to-Films adaption section(the site doesn't even have an entry under 'L' section) (4)When cross referencing Uwe Boll with "Kain" (on google, written as it is here) it found 306 matches, but when type as this: "uwe boll" "kain" -gamernode.com, it comes up with 184 matches (most of which site the Gamer Node article or are fears of the fans posts before this alleged "news" hit). One other website exists from the last search that does fall into either of the aforementioned categories http://www.chud.com/forums/archive/i...p/t-69253.html , this site from 2004 allegedly talk to Uwe Boll on games to movies he interested in LoK. However, I have my doubts about that conversation's credibility, but alas I can't go on a crusade assaulting every website cred on this matter. (5) Most damning of all is that Gamer Node's source Screen Daily does not list an LoK film at all.

Look I know Wiki is not original research, but my above reasons leads me to believe it is bogus. So, I going to revert my removal, until we come to a decision on it.Merc25 11:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe now it is in compliance with Wikipedia's standards. I do not believe this source[gamer node] is reliable, therefore I want to remove the entire section from the article. Can anyone verify it's credibility, before I do so, or provide a reason to leave the section? Merc25 09:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems that this is a rumour at best since, as you have pointed out, there hasn't been any official confirmation, or mention of it outside of that site. The wording could be altered to state more accurately that it is "rumoured" to be in the works, but I don't think wikipedia is the place for publishing rumours. Merc 2k 14:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the film portion from the article for the reasons listed above and to comply with the consensus of the editors. Merc25 19:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

LoK: Defiance = LAST GAME?

Is Legacy of Kain Defiance the last game to the LoK series?

( Has anyone played Lara Croft Legend? if you change Lara's skin into the goth skin you can find Kain's bat sign on the walls!

ps. does this means that Eidos is planning to make a sequel?

No way of knowing, but we can hope. Aaronomus (talk) 13:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Game informer says there will be another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.211.221 (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Defiance: Own Page

All of the other games of this series have their own pages. It only makes sense that Defiance have its own page as well. The section in this article does not provide all the relevant information about the game. I would make one myself, but I'm really too lazy. Tithonfury 04:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Section and Other Things

I removed the trivia section and split it into two different sections, The Future of the Series and Music, since those were the actual topics and not trivia. I also edited the new future section with better grammar and took out most claims and sentiments, although it still needs sources, but I'm new to Wiki, so other people came do that better. Also added more to the Music section. Again, sources would be good.

Also, can we clean out the "bad article" tag at the bottom now that the Defiance article is all shiny and that I cleaned out the Trivia? ClockworkCompanionCube 15:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall there being citations from the games themselves regarding plot elements, either I remember wrong, or they have been removed for some reason. I will check. Aaronomus (talk) 13:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

unclear

"the PC is the only platform to contain all the games, though it is possible to play all of them with just a PS2."

just what is this supposed to mean? If you can play all of them on a ps2 then doesn't the ps2 have all the games? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.38.231 (talk) 07:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I cleared this up. 92.21.48.181 (talk) 08:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The Pillars of Nosgoth

Why was the pillars of nosgoth article merged with this page? And who wrote it because they got quite a few things wrong with the specific purposes for each pillar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.173.34 (talk) 23:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Elder God

Why was the Elder Gods page removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.173.143 (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The Characters

Some the characters who's history and activities in the Legacy of Kain universe were extremely important in understanding the story and plot behind the games, some of them have been removed completely, why is that? It doesn't make sence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.175.13.2 (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

None of those character articles have been deleted or removed at all. They have simply been merged into a single, larger article for convenience. Most have even been expanded upon there. 86.44.199.40 (talk) 23:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Some have, the Hylden and Ancient Vampires are two. Can you help fix this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.175.13.2 (talk) 10:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

http://lokprodigalsons.webs.com/ legacy of kain prodigal sons

http://lokprodigalsons.webs.com/ [website frozen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I_Jt1GmaBU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjjkfVQYe3M

http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/2549015/Legacy-Of-Kain:-Prodigal-Sons-(creado-por-Jake-Pawloski).html

Ubuntu 10.04 april 2010 (talk) 21:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

WTF happened to the Nosgoth page?

I found this page by searching for "Nosgoth" and there used to be a beautiful page about it, complete with locations, etc. Now it's gone, and we have this undetailed skimpy piece of rubbish instead? The snare (talk) 06:46, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Post-Defiance - LoK:The Dark Prophecy

Just wondering what's going on here? there are several redirects for Legacy of Kain: The Dark Prophecy that lead to this page; but this page makes no reference to LOK:DP at all. Ritual entertainment had begun work on a Defiance sequel (DP) in 2003, but it was cancelled (pre deaths of Tony and Kyle)and as some of the talk above attests, a lot of people have never heard of it:- a small reference might help - there are many articles out there dealing with it - try this one Dark Prophecy LoK Wiki Page

86.179.153.87 (talk) 14:40, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Due to the boredom of the fans, a developing team has carried the responsibility of creating a new sequel to Defiance, more information are found here: agametocome.hubpages.com/hub/Legacy-of-Kain-to-be-continued-soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.99.126.67 (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Mention on Cain (biblical) article

Can we please at least MENTION the series there?

Grevenko Sereth 122.49.186.194 (talk) 00:24, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Shakespeare's plays

For the convenience of users who recently disputed the Shakespeare reference, the citation you're looking for is this. --LoK Wiki (talk) 20:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with List of Legacy of Kain characters

LoK characters as a singular entity is not the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources. (?) If we reduced the primary source reliance here, everything that needs to be said about the characters can fit into the main series article. czar 01:04, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

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Proposed merge of Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 1 & 2 Remastered into Legacy of Kain

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was not to merge. LoK Wiki (talk) 00:12, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

---

The remasters are almost direct copies of the original games, there is no apparent need for a separate article. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I apologize, but I disagree. The models are remade, and new features are being included. Also, I can’t see why this article shouldn’t be made, because it’s of the same scope as Tomb Raider I-III (and later Tomb Raider IV-VI).

The reason you gave, that the LoK remasters are, “almost direct copies”, when compilation articles of Metal Gear Solid: Master Collection, are also upscaled direct copies too. (Unless you’re counting bonus content, of which, the LoK remaster will have much of.)

I wanted to say why I disagree with your reasoning, and I don’t think the article should just be a redirect. Either way, I’m totally fine with any result. Caleblivesblood (talk) 04:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, the collection has its own release and (soon) reception sections. There's some development info ([5]), and there's enough gameplay differences for a small gameplay section. --Mika1h (talk) 13:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, direct copies would be a questionable POV and merge doesn't seem obligatory with plenty of directly comparable remaster compilations (including those from the same studio) receiving wholly uncontested articles. --LoK Wiki (talk) 03:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.